Glenn's Underground Cabin Update

Started by glenn kangiser, January 30, 2005, 10:24:03 PM

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Dog

Awesome with the Solar Panels!  :)
Thanks
The wilderness is a beautiful thing for the soul. Live free or die.

MountainDon

I am awestruck! Dumbfounded!

PV panels elevated, on a post! Up where they are supposed to be, not lying flat on the ground where the dog can do-do on them! Astounding innovative idea!    ;D ;D ;D  What next, Glann?    ;) ;)
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


Redoverfarm

Shame on you Dog.

Buy the way what is with the screen name and the screen picture.  Quite opposite ???

glenn kangiser

Arrr... It's driving me nuts....

Don, they were on the roof -- the dog would have to get onto the roof to damage them... but since the roof joins the ground in a few places, they have done that.  Didn't damage anything though...d* 

My dogs love to get high so they go up on the roof... [waiting]

They love to watch things and watch me work.... they are watch dogs.  hmm

Got the cylinder mounted a little bit ago.... I know ...

"Mini me .....stop  h-----g the laser.... perhaps you and the Laser should get a room"

I meant I installed it on the tracker... d*
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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steveastrouk

Quote from: glenn kangiser on December 30, 2008, 10:39:38 PM
Even at right after daylight I was getting 10 amps where I was getting nothing to very little for the first few hours.  I had so much excess power today that I pumped water 3 times, or about 450 gallons and still didn't use all of the excess.  The controller shut down the panels for part of the day.

Glenn,

Couldn't you load-dump your excess from the panels into your hot water tank ?

Steve


glenn kangiser

I have an on demand propane water heater, Steve,  but I do dump load it into the water pump so water gets stored in the tank up the hill 80 feet elevation above the cabin.  I also time 15 minutes of pumping at intervals of about 2 hrs to keep the power from getting wasted.  Water pump pulls around 2400 watts.

I go a lot done yesterday but it's late so I will have to post pix tomorrow.  The propane reservoir/heat tubes are made and  mounted and I widened it all 26" wider before mounting the tubes to allow for more panels on it.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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steveastrouk

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 01, 2009, 04:47:45 AM
I have an on demand propane water heater, Steve,  but I do dump load it into the water pump so water gets stored in the tank up the hill 80 feet elevation above the cabin. 

Hi Glen,
Big thing here in the UK for eco-plumbing is the "Thermal store" - a whacking great tank (100 USG ?) of water which is heated by whatever you have, solar, heat pump, woodfire whatever. The energy is sucked out by an in-line heat exchanger sitting in the tank, piped from the coldwater feed - so you don't actually get the water storing the heat, just the heat - then even low grade heat prewarms the cold feed  to your propane heater - and you save on the gas.

In my climate solar for electrical is a waste of time. Our insolation drops  to only double digit watts/day for affordable panels. Even solar for thermal is tricky to make cheaply enough to get returns in folks' lifetime.

Steve

glenn kangiser

That is a good idea, Steve.  I could probably use an electric heater to use the dumpload on and preheat water.  At this point I had been able to burn most of it pumping.  I was also thinking of more batteries to store more and pump later at night as I am limited by the well on how much I can draw before I suck it dry.

How are you for wind over there?  I know there is a pretty famous guy in Scotland who builds and instructs on wind generators - Hugh Piggot - Scoraig.  He gives out a lot of free info also.  http://www.scoraigwind.com/
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

OK ... a quick update as the sun is rising and I have to make more progress this morning --



I repaired the cylinder ends - air tested it and made mounting brackets - I decided to reverse it also to put the cylinder end toward the panels - It will give me more power in the morning to return the tracker to the sun and eliminate some of the hose movement and length.



I made propane tube fitting adapter ends from washers and 1/2 of a 1/4 inch pipe coupling which I cut in half with the band saw. 



I brazed the adapters onto the ends of the 1 inch EMT.  Brass with the gas torch is very strong and almost always leak free with a visual inspection.  It also works well with the galvanization - zinc.  I got a touch of metal fume fever from the fumes yesterday.  Respirator when welding?..... I didn't think I was getting that much....besides - real men don't use them ... right? hmm



The tubes will be a fill point and reservoir for the propane and oil for the cylinder - I'm using ATF - just enough to keep the cylinder oiled - I think.  3 feet up you see a pipe thread with a plug going into the side of the tube.  That is so I can sense where the liquid propane will fill to when I charge the system. [waiting]
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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steveastrouk

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 01, 2009, 10:53:21 AM[/img]
  Respirator when welding?..... I didn't think I was getting that much....besides - real men don't use them ... right? hmm

That's 'cos real men get emphysema. Zinc fume is cumulatively toxic AFAIR ....

Pigott's designs are simple to build, but, with my electrical engineer's hat on  their efficiency is appalling - you could extract 4 times more power, or  make the things much smaller and save materials if you sort out the flux paths.

The biggest single wind farm in the UK is about 3 miles from here -


Steve

glenn kangiser

Hmm... guess I better lay off the zinc.. d*

Nice wind farm - similar to ours near the Altamont and Pacheco pass except your scenery is prettier..

Steve, I am planning on some day building a homebuilt wind generator.  Do you know of a decent design or have suggestions?

I have a couple of PM treadmill motors - looks like I would have to step up the speed from the prop to make them work.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

Our view of the airport from the roof top--- Sassy is down under that fog somewhere. [scared]



I now have the gas reservoirs charged up and it seems it is going to work.  Being so cold out it was a bit slow to respond but after lunch I came back to check and it was tracking the sun.  If it is too marginal, I may go to a larger cylinder.



Since I am using a high tech design and parts have been made by me on a highly skilled level, I felt it only proper I add a precision variable foot pound counterweight to fine tune the tracker so it would move with ease as it locked on to and followed the movement of the sun.  [waiting]

I extended it out and added the shades and gas tubes, leaving room for more panels depending on how it works in the wind.  I added extra bracing for wind loads tonight as there is a storm coming this weelkend.

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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steveastrouk

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 02, 2009, 02:51:48 AM
I now have the gas reservoirs charged up and it seems it is going to work.  Being so cold out it was a bit slow to respond but after lunch I came back to check and it was tracking the sun.  If it is too marginal, I may go to a larger cylinder.

Paint the cylinder matt black ? Add a curved linear, aluminium reflector just to pump heat onto the cylinder ? Make the cylinder the focus of the reflector ?

Wind generators - well the big boys all use poly-phase (more than three phase) generators - there was an open day at the wind farm, so I grilled the engineers there....The magnetics are such that there are absolutely minimal airgaps in the electric machines - the key to efficiency (=more power out) The AC output is rectified to DC and then chopped up into regular AC by their (large) inverters. There are some clever tricks you could do electronically - "synchronous rectifiers" which could boost your efficiencies if you generate at low voltages, but again, the big guys are using 750 V outputs.

I'm not saying you "have" to do what the big guys do, but just note that they don't do anything for crazy reasons. High volts ...lower losses. Many phases....lower losses. Making a system to generate at battery volts is not likely to be as good. If you have the technical savvy - and boy does it look like you have - then copy some of their tricks !

glenn kangiser

Thanks for the ideas, Steve.  Sometimes getting the clues is half of the battle.  I had two years of electronics in High School, so I'm not a pro but I have a couple ideas about what's going on anyway.  d*

The points you brought up are some of what I was thinking last night and more.  I was thinking of painting over my original black paint and with less glossy paint --- will have to see if I have some flat.  The main thing I am worried about is wake up and getting rotation pressure in the morning.  I read a clue on the Zome Works tracker (fluid weight transfer for rotation...   - seems primitive).  They had a wake up reflector but didn't tell much about it. 

I was also thinking of making some little parabolic reflectors to catch the morning sun when it first comes up but they would have to be limited to where they are clear of the tube when the sun is direct on, so the two can balance after it rotates nominal 180 degrees.  Even partial should help I think.  I have some mirror stainless I should be able to make the reflectors out of.  I could also make some partial reflectors for heating the fluid when the sun is direct if I matched both sides.

I understand the rectification of the AC to DC.  My old dead telephone co. buddy taught me about full wave bridge rectifiers when I was about 13.  He made electronic alarms for monitoring water levels at his side business trout hatchery that I managed when he was gone.

I appreciate all of the input, Steve, and understand the concepts so when the time comes if I at least have the ideas, I can study up on the ones I want or need to use.

I did air conditioning installations on Caterpillar tractors - starting from scratch with Saf-T-Cab kits, so understand that too which helps when getting this thing to work.  Propane is a better refrigerant than R12 and was basically put out of use by DuPont propaganda when they invented R12 and wanted to prevent it's use so they would have the only game in town on much of the refrigerant sales.

Wonder why R12 is out of use now -- Global Warming  ??? -- Killing the Ozone layer.... [noidea'       

Nope.... It's patent expired and it was about to be able to be manufactured by anybody.  They couldn't stand the thought of losing the sales of R-12 so they demonized it and came up with the vastly inferior R134a. 

Some others came out with propane-isobutane mixes (which propane already is) as a replacement for R12.  Duracool is one example.

Why doesn't everyone use propane in AC?

Can you imagine how much money would be lost if everyone used propane and it only cost about $.50 to fill your automobile A/C?

It is proven that about a pint of flammable propane in your auto A/C is much safer than the 20 gallons of gasoline or 30 gallons of diesel you are sitting on in a wreck. 

The reason for not using propane is corporate greed and legislative complicity for corporate profit.  That's the major motivation. 

Off of the soap box and back to the project now. heh
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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steveastrouk

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 02, 2009, 09:20:14 AM
  Propane is a better refrigerant than R12 and was basically put out of use by DuPont propaganda when they invented R12 and wanted to prevent it's use so they would have the only game in town on much of the refrigerant sales.
Ammonia is a better refrigerant than many things, but it went out to be replaced by CFCs to stop the refrigerant killing people ! Part of the law on unintended consequences...

Propane in a car installation might form an explosive mix in an accident, given the internal volume of the vehicle ?

In Europe at least, there is a mandate to move to liquid C02 in another couple of years, for car A/C.

I've got some interesting papers on "Anidolic" reflectors - reflectors specifically designed to gather as much throw light as possible and throw it into a room, but not form an image - maybe they might be of interest to you ? I found a source for that amazing anodised polished aluminium stuff they use for light pipes, but it ain't cheap in onesies and twosie sheets.

Steve

glenn kangiser

That would also be great info, about the reflectors, Steve.  I'm interested in lots of things that may be useful.

There has been quite a bit of study done in the past, on the safety of propane in car AC.  I got the info from a bunch of retired auto and RV dealer execs on a website they posted on. 

There is a slight possibility of a problem but unlikely to get the proper mix to form an explosion.  More likely a small fire or vented to atmosphere.  The Duracool (propane mix) is approved here with a sticker warning any mechanic of it's flamability in the engine compartment.  Little chance of a problem.  Safer than filling the auto with gasoline.

I have a 1934 refrigerator we still use and the refrigerant is sulfur dioxide.  It is probably 400% more efficient than anything on the market today.  Less than 200 watts 120v for about 8 minutes per hour.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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steveastrouk

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 02, 2009, 10:19:24 AM
That would also be great info, about the reflectors, Steve.  I'm interested in lots of things that may be useful.

YGM.
QuoteI have a 1934 refrigerator we still use and the refrigerant is sulfur dioxide.  It is probably 400% more efficient than anything on the market today.  Less than 200 watts 120v for about 8 minutes per hour.

How's it insulated ? That counts for a heck of a lot of "performance" I want to build a fridge with vacuum insulated panels - 10x  better than PU insulation.

Steve

glenn kangiser

I think it is just fiber insulation between metal panels, about 4 inches thick, but the motor and entire system drops onto the top of the insulated cabinet.  Very top heavy for moving and will easily tip over on unsuspecting movers.

http://www.antiqueappliances.com/monitor_top_refrigerators.htm



"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

I mounted two more panels below the 8 shown above.  They clear the roof by about 1 inch at full tilt.  I am going to beef up the frame, making trusses of the arms and add the 4 panels that are missing.  I found info showing that wind loading should be under 20 psf.  at around 70 mph with all of my turbulence and obstacles - trees etc. so I think based on my rough calcs I can handle it. 

I will mount my 14 thin film ones permanently about 15 feet ahead  of the tracker on the roof to keep the shadows clear but still reduce the wind loading on the tracker.

I made a small reflector for the wake up today - maybe it will help.  I want to get a new gauge for permanent pressure differential monitoring.  One of my old ones leaks so I have to shut the valve off.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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ScottA

Glen that's quite the contraption you've built there. Looks like something from nasa almost. Ever hear of zip ties?  heh


glenn kangiser

:D I kept trying to remember to mention that after I was done experimenting I was going to tie up the wiring, hoses etc. [waiting]

  ....but I forgot   -- still more going up there.  Currently I'm just making sure that the wires don't get too tight when rotating the tracker. d*

I wonder what size bucket of rocks NASA uses? [noidea'
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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PEG688

Quote from: ScottA on January 04, 2009, 10:23:16 AM


Ever hear of zip ties?  heh



Wire management and tool control are not  two of Glenn's strong points.  [rofl2]



It's almost a to  fruitful mind thing , maybe ???  [shocked]

  Glenn's already grinding on the next project / thing to get started on , so wire management and that tool control (pulling things away) are lost in all that minutia of the next big job   c*


 

 
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

glenn kangiser

I completely forgot to move the stuff out of the picture before PEG got to look at it... d* d*

You are of course, correct, PEG. [waiting]

I can make a bigger mess than anyone I know.  No wonder I never like to start an new project. [noidea'
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

Sometimes I leave the tools there so they will be ready for the next phase of the job....  :)

I do pick them up before I move on to the next one though.... most of the time.... or I try to remember where I worked last... [waiting]
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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PEG688

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 04, 2009, 12:09:52 PM


  No wonder I never like to start an new project. [noidea'



  You start more projects than anyone here , I think maybe your issues are in finishing projects.


I know that NAVAIR drove home tool control and finishing the job , right down to the paper work , really . As a USN jet can't get shot off the pointy end until the paper work is signed off , or at least being processed . We did fudge that a little on the boat as at times you'd almost be tie wiring , screwing down , installing a component as the jet was taxing to the cats.

The reason for that is the deck has to wrap from launching to reconfigure for landing as the returning jets are "in the break" pattern to land . So IF you don't get your broke jet "up" you lose the sortie / the asset isn't in the hunt . (jets does NOT go  on the mission and NO one wants to go into harms way without the jammer / Prowler along) .

But part of that finish the job includes inventorying ALL the tools used , (ever tool box / tool pouch is labeled as to where EACH tool goes , exactly ) so all those need accounted for , exactly , no fugding , no missing , I think I left it ???? :o . No one wants to fly a tactical jet with a few wrenches floating around flight control cables or loose sitting on the glare shield (windshield dash ) and have it smack the pilot in the face on the cat stroke.

So that helped me put finishing the job in order.

  Hows that for  along winded , off topic / thread drifted answer?   
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .