Bolt-together house question.

[Jared]

To anybody who has these plans, how well insulated is this thing? If a family had to live in it, would it live well?
Jared

[jraabe]

This building uses wall panels prefabricated from flat 2x's and plywood. This leaves 1-1/2" for insulation

The floor and ceiling panels use 2x4's upright for an insulation depth of 3-1/2"

This is not sufficient insulation for most locations - even those where codes are not a concern.

You can probably understand why Jeff Milstein didn't want people to build this structure as designed.  

The interesting question is how would you build such a building today?

I would site build it with standard framing and good insulation and I would probably make it bigger, maybe make it 10' or 12' where the module now is 8'. It would be a more usable size for longer term living. Oh, and I wouldn't cantilever the floors off just 4 posts.

[Amanda_931]

But an awful lot of us had those plans.  I know I did.  

[mikeschn]

This building uses wall panels prefabricated from flat 2x's and plywood. This leaves 1-1/2" for insulation

The floor and ceiling panels use 2x4's upright for an insulation depth of 3-1/2"

This is not sufficient insulation for most locations - even those where codes are not a concern.

You can probably understand why Jeff Milstein didn't want people to build this structure as designed.  

The interesting question is how would you build such a building today?

I would site build it with standard framing and good insulation and I would probably make it bigger, maybe make it 10' or 12' where the module now is 8'. It would be a more usable size for longer term living. Oh, and I wouldn't cantilever the floors off just 4 posts.

John,

I modeled up the bolt together house quickly to get a feel for what it would look like with 2x4 walls, and 2x6 floors and roofs. I also used 6x6 posts, and started with a 10' module in the center...

Before I make any comments, I'd like to show you the pictures...







First of all those panels are heavy. You probably couldn't handle them without a crane...  If you made them small enough to handle, then you'd have to skin them at the site, or cover the joints with battens.

Even though I started with a 10' module, by the time we subtract the thickness of the posts and the thickness of the panels, we are almost back to 8' of usable space in there.

I tried to stick with 8' high panels, and by the time I add the 30* roof, especially in the back, there's not enough headroom to even sit in a chair. I threw in a Lazy Boy Recliner to give you a perspective of the size...  

I could make lots more comments, but I'd like to hear what you guys think...

Mike...

[Sassy]

Wow, you did a wonderful job on the drawings... or is that the real thing?  I can hardly tell it apart... it looks nice but I guess until you do what you did, wouldn't know how heavy, difficult or user unfriendly it actually is.

[dail(Guest)]

Just to amuse ya'll...

Back in the early '80's, My wife and I, needed a small, insulated storage building for storing our few belongings that we had in our duplex that we were renting at the time. (Climate controlled.)
My father in law, who lives outside of Cheney in Eastern Washington State, on a platue full of open hayfields, gave me permission to put one there. An 8 x 8 with 10 foot sq. roof. So...
Not having much money, (A continuing saga of mine.) and my shop at the duplex were we lived 10 miles away, I designed the building to be a "bolt together" and "portable building" by one person. The panal walls were 2x2's on the corners, with 1x2's studs at 16" O.C. I used panal nails due to their "ring shank" & glue. The exterior sheathing was painted 3/8's partical board. The interior was the same. (It was "cheap" then.) I salvaged  high density fiberglass insultion panels from a local appliance dealer who repaired a lot of refrigerators. Foam wasn't available then, or at least in the area. The insulation was about 1 and a half inchs thick.
The ceiling height was 6' to cut down on heat needed and costs of materials.
The floor was 2x4 framed with 1/2 ply over, built in two, 4 x 8 (roughly) sections that could be lag screwed together.
The panels, had oblong holes at the corners on the inside of the walls to lagscrew them together on site.
The roof was built in two, 4 x 8 foot sections. The traditional gambrel style.
All wiring for a porch light, interior light and outlet, was done on the front wall panel along side the only slit window in the building. Made of plexiglass.
I could move all sections by myself with a small utility trailer, and stand them in place and lagscrew them together without any help. Sliding the roof up an on after bolting the rest of the structure together.
Needless to say, my father in law was very impressed......until November when a strong wind storm came up out of the pariee across the platue.
It "grabbed" the eve of the 1 foot overhang on the backside roof section, lifting the roof up and off the building. Carrying it in the air over 30 feet, it then dropped it on a corner and shattered it into a million pieces across his backyard runway. (He is a small plane piolet.)

...I had forgotten to bolt it down to the top plates....(sigh)

To this day, every small cottage I've built, he asks, jokingly; "well, did you remember to tie the roof down on this one?"

[Jared]

That's an interesting looking house. If one were to upsize it a bit, it'd be great for the person who wanted to build in stages, as money permitted. Plus, my Little House Design kit could be used for the foundations. It'd take some reworking to allow for a full bath and half bath and a useable kitchen, but it could be done.
As far as the bolt-together thing goes, I see the limitations. It just doesn't sound like it could ever be used as anything except a small vacation house. Short vacations at that. Sassy's right, until you do what you did, you just don't know how difficult it can be. But, you gave me a great idea that I wouldn't have had on my own.
If the rear of the shed roof on the center part of the house is 8' from the upper floor, how high is the front wall?
Jared Drake

[mikeschn]

If the rear of the shed roof on the center part of the house is 8' from the upper floor, how high is the front wall?
Jared Drake

Jared,

The (rear shed) side panel is 8' at the highest point... the front panel should be 16'.

Mike...

[jraabe]

Interesting story Dial - and very nice little model Mike!

The basic platforms could be built using the Little House plans and I think the most efficient way to build this would to carry the standard materials, stacked lumber, nails, plywood and such to the site and use standard platform framing. You would lay out the pier footings, set the beams on top and then build the main floor deck. On the deck you would layout the wall panels. If you were using T1-11 plywood for the siding you could put this on before each panel is tilted up into place. You would probably do something like a box beam header to support the upper floor and carry the weight into the corner piers (which would have built-up posts in each corner. Then you would build the second deck and then go up there to frame and sheath the upper panels.

As the cabin gets larger I would look at shed roofs below and either a gable at the peak or a four sided hip (since it is a square). It would give it a bit of a watchtower look.  

What program are you using Mike?

[mikeschn]

What program are you using Mike?

Ya had to ask, didn't ya... I'm using IronCAD.

If you build the house using standard stick construction you could actually model it in Floorplan.

Since this bolt together house is so unorthodox, I had to model it up in a bona-fide CAD program.

To make the design better I would limit the sheds to 4' deep, and 20* on the roof pitch, so you don't lose too much headroom. I would also push the front and back walls to the "outside" edge of the 6x6's. If that's still not enough room, then you have to make the main module larger.

Using a 10' x 10' module you can get a queen sized bed in the loft. But you're limited to a full sized bed in one of the sheds.

I'm not sure how much further I should pursue this, it looks so..... hmmm... bolt togetherish!!!  

Mike...

[mikeschn]

use standard platform framing. You would lay out the pier footings, set the beams on top and then build the main floor deck.

Let's flip the house over and take a look...  

Ah yes, I started with standard platform framing...  Then for the add on sheds I tried it Jeff's way.  



One day I'll have to try it with temporary piers...

Mike...

[Jared]

Interesting story Dial - and very nice little model Mike!

You would probably do something like a box beam header to support the upper floor and carry the weight into the corner piers (which would have built-up posts in each corner.

What's a box beam header? I thought I'd upsize the main body of the house to the biggest Little House plan. Would all the weight still need to be carried to the corner piers since there would be other piers beneath the floor? Then the other rooms (hips, as I call them) would have their own piers and would be built later. I hate that you suggest a different style roof, because I liked the idea of a shed roof on all "modules" of this house. I think I'd like a "hip" module on all four sides, though, so I could have an honest living room out front. Depends, though.
Jared

[keyholefarmhouse]

It loooks like a 12 year olds dream (club) house.

I also think that the more this plan gets tweaked into shape, the more it looks like the 14x24 with a shed roof option.  Now thats a good design.

[Jared]

Keyhole, that's just what I was thinking. Of course, I'm not considering bolting it together. The more I look at the size the more it hits me that I'm wanting to build a house and it's big. Kind of daunting isn't it?
Jared

[Jared Drake]

Jared,

The (rear shed) side panel is 8' at the highest point... the front panel should be 16'.

Mike...

So, the first floor has 8' walls. The upper floor has a rear wall of 8' and a front wall of 16'? Wow. That would make the front of the house 24' total. (A little over 24' anyway) That's quite a bit, isn't it?
Jared

[John Raabe]

Mike:

Neat that you could flip the house over like that to see how it is framed.   Wish we could do that to all the magazine houses!

Suggestion: It might be worth running the joists out the same direction to catch the projected bay and stiffen that floor with continuous spans.

On sheds: The nature of shed roofs is that they usually look and work best on smaller buildings. As a structure gets larger a shed usually has to get flatter (or has a very high sidewall and wasted interior space). Once a shed gets shallow my eye wants it to be near flat and then I'll do a green roof or a walking deck.

. This is the 14x24 with combination sheds (uses the Enchilada plans).

(Click image for Planhelp download of 3DHA file.)

[Jared Drake]

As a structure gets larger a shed usually has to get flatter (or has a very high sidewall and wasted interior space). Once a shed gets shallow my eye wants it to be near flat and then I'll do a green roof or a walking deck.

Wouldn't a walking deck leak? Kind of like the flat roofs that are put on commercial buidings and schools around here.
Jared

[John Raabe]

There are lots of great membrane materials now for flat roofs. The old style hot mop and torch down can work too.

The issue is always getting the drainage right and protecting the membrane. A green roof with soil and a drainage mat is great. A wood deck will work as will a layer of gravel draining to scuppers with concrete pavers above.

Done right a near flat walking deck/roof can stay leak free as long or longer than a sloped roof.

[mikeschn]

So, the first floor has 8' walls. The upper floor has a rear wall of 8' and a front wall of 16'? Wow. That would make the front of the house 24' total. (A little over 24' anyway) That's quite a bit, isn't it?
Jared

A picture is worth a thousand words... I see the front being 16' high...



Mike...

[Daddymem]

Some green roof information here:
http://www.greenroofs.org/

[Ailsa C. Ek]

Done right a near flat walking deck/roof can stay leak free as long or longer than a sloped roof.

What about snow loads?  I keep hearing stories of buildings that collapse under snow because the builder insisted on putting a flat roof.

[John Raabe]

Of course, you don't just take a pitched roof, make it flat and then have a group of people march out on top of it. You design the structure for the anticipated loads. It would take a pretty stupid builder to insist on a flat roof using the same structure as a steep one. He would also quickly be put on out of business by the legal system.

The ski lodge at Stevens Pass, WA (and many other ski areas) have flat roofs designed to hold the snow so they don't have to be constantly moving what slides off. It is a group of huge buildings with many long span glulam beams and heavy decking in the ceiling.

A roof deck is usually designed for a live load of 60 psf - note that the live load of the main house where the grand piano sits is only 40 psf. If the local snow load is more than this (and it can be 100 psf or higher in heavy snow areas) then that is what you design the structure for. A green roof adds to the dead load but not the live load.

[Amanda_931]

Snow adds to the insulation in the winter as well.  

But again, only if the roof has been designed for it.

So you can't really call it "free insulation when you need it most."

And besides "when you need it most" is probably during some sort of winter gale that takes all the snow off.