rammed earth bricks for retaining wall

[paul s]

hi,

i googled and was over whellmed.  knew i could turn here.  i have a sloping lot nd need to build some betaining walls and have done several expeiments with wood and brick qand the like.  

cost is a  consideration so i am thinking of making a soil brick 8 x 12 inche and 6 inches thick.  as i haive soil and clay and sand anda roto tiller and could build a press even a hydraulic one each brick would have a lip on one end to help them stack together each laver recessing say 1.5 inches.  i could add a bit of portland cement into the mix if needed and have a mixer to.  th son of mine is turning 15 this summer and  i was thinking since he is 6'3" tall and 220 lbs this would be a good work out for football!!

thoughts where to get the best info  actual mixx of the soil and cement

thanks

retaining wqlls will be long but only 3 feet in height and i will drain tile behind and tamp the sioi in plce carefully as i go


thanks

[paul s]

i have done some more reding and googling and  found various presses

http://www.ferncometal.com/products.htm

these folks make presses hydraulic, compressed air and manual

it all looks do able and will keep me busy now how many bricks do i need/?
paul

[Amanda_931]

four inches high, a foot long.  So a wall 3 feet high, six feet long would be something on the order of 50-some blocks, with some half-blocks, and some kind of underground footing.

IIRC these have to cure for a bit before they can go on a wall.  They will need at least some cement.

No lips on the sides or back here.  just blocks.  (also IIRC you get to order your machine from India to get into the fancy stuff like that)

There is a company in Decatur Alabama (DEFCO) that sells the expensive motorized machines that make a block 8" wide, otherwise also a foot long 4 inches high.  If you're not too far away either from there or from a distributor farther east--Charlotte, I think--you might talk to them.  They might sell blocks as well.  It has been mentioned.  

All of which considerations have led me to think that a retaining wall needs something other than those to work.  A building, that's a different story.

"topless tires"  the way the Farbers do them, painted--or not.  Mike Shealy did a foundation/wall for a goat shed out of them, as far as I know is still happy about the results.  I don't bother doctoring my jig-saw blades.  NB.  This won't work for tires with STEEL SIDEWALLS--most tractor trailer tires..  Steel belts are OK.

http://www.touchtheearthranch.com/goatshed.htm  

picture of a very old tire retaining wall here:

http://www.touchtheearthranch.com/tirestart.htm

rock filled wire baskets (maybe not technically gabions, but that's what will give you the best results from a search) are probably better if you are planning to put something--building, for instance--on top of the wall.  There's a picture of a couple of these on my picture site.

These guys are 3-4 foot cubes, strong enough, they hope to keep the bluff from collapsing.

http://groups.msn.com/ap615/newpicturesmidsept2002.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=191

Somewhere on that site there are a couple of pictures of a retaining wall built with 18 in gabions, on top of which--many feet up--is a wal-mart parking lot.  I couldn't find it just now.

those expensive patent blocks. they do have lips.

[glenn kangiser]

Why make bricks? You could do cob or plain rammed earth - stabilize with about 4 to 7% cement as needed to keep from dissolving in water then just build it in place solid - rammed earth in forms or cob can be free form -- unless you just want the brick look and want to spend a lot for a machine?  With cob, the straw is reinforcement- you could use the same in rammed earth.  Proper mix for most kinds of earth building is 30% clay 70% sand and aggregate including whatever rock or sand is in the clay.  It is not necessary to stabilize all of it or any of it really if you put a roof over the cob or earth wall.  We have exposed cob that has weathered for 3 years with little deterioration - it was fairly heavy on aggregate.

Ramming can be done with a pneaumatic rammer as I did in my RV garage or just with a stick with a rock on the end if you don't mind hard work - or the son will do it.  Cob can be done by had or with machine assistance also.  I stabilized the rammed earth in my RV garage with about 5% cement - even though water is running over it from the snow it is not deteriorating or softening.

A layer of rocks on the ground would make a good foundation and allow drinage too if you don'r mortar them.  A roof of some kind on the top of the wall will help prevent water damage.  Many walls such as this are replastered every so often.


Pix from and more info here       http://www.innerexplorations.com/simpletext/acob.htm

Above are things that work for me - site specific considerations may apply for you as Amanda mentioned above so if you have any questions about it you may want to ask a local professional - -- not too much telling what you are trying to hold back with these walls.

[Amanda_931]

I wouldn't want cob as a retaining wall.

At a minimum, "stabilized earth" with cement or asphalt emulsion  and then only if it's not very high and/or not holding up something serious.

Garden wall, yes, please!  Although if I were planning to, say plant a fig tree or even an orange on the sunny side I might plaster with soil cement even there.

(I can't believe that Ms Concrete Is Bad is saying this)

[paul s(Guest)]

thanks for the info  some goode points by all

i have looked around my area and seen some cuts in the earth 3' to 9' high that have remained inplace well over the years

i want to pretty it up and make it nice as well as hold back the soil

yes it will take a lot of brick  and i think i will go that way
i like the wall in place but worry about the cracks in it but then it savves a labor step so still undecided

humm
perhaps a slip form and just slip it up and down and along the wall as i go

just not real sure yet

if i had endless money i would buy fancy retaining wall masonary!
lol
and hire a crew

the lottery just started here so could try that

i know i am a rambling but i am thinking too
going to do brick
reason why  is space is tightin some places and can place brick on ground and tamp dirt in behind them
will be slow going
lik
now to build a press

thanks to all

[glenn kangiser]

Pressed bricks are tougher, but you could just make a frame and make stabilized adobe - as simple as making a box the size you want and putting stiff mud in it with enough cement or asphalt emulsion to stabilize it - lift the form box and make more leaving the fresh made brick standing by itself to cure-stand it on edge to dry when solid enough-- just takes a minute or two per brick.

According to this site http://www.quentinwilson.com/adobe-web-resources/

Cement stabilized bricks absorb water and  freeze spalling them - I have found this to be true with cob also.  Stablizing with asphalt emulsion will waterproof the bricks eliminating the problem.  Add about 5% Henry's 107 - or Blackjack (I think) asphalt emulsion -

[Amanda_931]

Consider drains and deadmen.

The latter is some sort of fastening into whatever is back of the retaining wall.  I've been wondering if another tire, buried back there somewhere and cabled to the wall would work.  

The guys who make the patent blocks don't recommend going more that three or five high without either a drain or something back there to keep the walls from bulging and failing.

There are plenty of walls everywhere I've looked where they are failing because of hydraulic pressure.

[glenn kangiser]

That's for sure - I dug out one that moved 10 feet in front of a wall of mud - it was only about 3 feet high - 30 feet long but the mud was about a 30% slope above it.

[paul s]

Yes  i have seen walls buckling and falling to, hydraulics!!

but the cut banks just wash and erode, no hydraulic pressure!!

so will have to do the drainage and the like.

been reading a lot about adobe and  it looks like mud brick will be the thing

mix it, mold it
cure it
and stack them

plan on using  2 x 4 for the molds and make them 7 x 14 inches  so every cubic foot of mud will make 5 bricks

i have a variety of soils to use  clay and sandy and should make a good mix. will have to do some trials

will start with 4 buckets of soil and one gallon of lime and 1 gallon of portland cement

what about straw?

thanks for the guiden influence

Paul

[glenn kangiser]

Actually you can go about 20 gallons of clay/sand mix to one of portland cement and one of lime if you want it.  Try  a sample - let it dry and see if it stays together in water.  Cut the straw bales with a chainsaw along both sides of the strings before cutting the strings to make shorter straws.  Add straw to taste--per Becky Bee--  probably 4 or 5 big handfulls per 20 clay/sand mix.

About one Henry's 107 to 20 of the above would waterproof to prevent freeze damage and if you wanted you could eliminate the cement -if your clay is good enough.  

[paul s]

Ok so exactly what is Henry's 107 - or Blackjack (I think) asphalt emulsion  liquid, solid, powder and where do i get it , lowes homedepot etc

how does it come bag bucked etc

thanks

paul

[glenn kangiser]

They are both water soluble until dry asphalt emulsions mixed with clay thickener that come in 5 gallon buckets.  They will be near the roof patching 5 gallon buckets.  When dry they are waterproof.  They will stabilize the clay without cement and waterproof it.  Experiment with it a bit - make samples -vary the quantity of asphalt emulsion -let it dry and try it soaking for a bit in a bucket of water.

SS1H is a similar material for sealing roads - much cheaper-more liquid - available from road oil or sealer places.  About 4 to 10% depending on the qualities of your soil on all of this stuff -

Dirt Cheap builder has info on this stuff too.

Charmaine Taylor Publishing
www.dirtcheapbuilder.com
PO BOX 375 CUTTEN CA 95534
Tel:  707-441-1632   MORE Building DVDs in stock

YOU CAN VISIT  WWW.PAPERCRETE.COM  FOR MANY LINKS  Her site also.

[paul s]

glen i bought  about 30 dollars of books at dirt cheap and they have helped me a lot went to home depot and henery's was 101 and 201 but no 107

so will check lowes on friday or saturday
any suggestions

thanks

[Amanda_931]

Interesting, I think our big box guys have Henry's 107 but not 101.

[glenn kangiser]

Henrys 107  is the only Henry's suitable that I know of.  Lowes here had Blackjack asphalt emulsion which is also good.  Other than that - a road oil company may have SS1H or one other type of SS1 that will also work.  I haven't used the SS1's myself but it is used to waterproof road sand - dirt etc --- and a brick company mentioned they used it.


Key to all of these is that they mix readily with water and are waterproof when dry.  I just checked some we did with henrys a couple years ago -- still there and still waterproof.

[Amanda_931]

101 uses a solvent other than water.

With a different technique, can be used as a coating.  Not, probably, as an additive to adobe or whatever.

http://www.henry.com/index.php?id=149

so I might be wrong about which one they carry.  I've got a can down the hill, but I'm not going down to look at it right now.

[paul s]

returned home to north carolina this weekend and checked out home depot here they have the Henry's 107  22.95 per 5 gal pail

samples soon

paul