Circle The Wagons

[peternap]

The jobs report just came out. I expected bad.....it was very bad!

Now...we need to watch the open this morning and see if we break the lows at close. That's going to give a glimmer to the extent of this meltdown.

My prediction (Read that GUESS) is that if we don't break the lows today, this may improve by June. If we do breech the low, this may well be long and violent.

There isn't much difference between a recession and a depression, but my opinion is we are in a full blown DEPRESSION if we break the lows today. Keep in mind that Fridays tend to close lower anyway.....troubled Fridays make investors run for the hills.

Grab some popcorn and watch our economy struggle in the quicksand.

Idus Martiae

[MountainDon]

Beware the Ides of March --William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar

[muldoon]

peter,

Interested post, however I think the inverse of what you claimed may be a truer depiction of the events. 

I believe the problems we have economically are not because the stock market is falling and therefore cannot be fixed by keeping the dow above a support/resistance line.  Instead of the economy is falling because of stock market decline I think the stock market is falling because the economy is in decline.  At it's surface that may sound like a trivial difference but I believe the distinction is important because the fix must address the problem and not the symptom.  I think the market is reacting to other problems as it is a forward looking market by definition.  The economic problems to me are directly related to credit contraction which equates to tightening money supply.  Going back to eco101, what does a tightening money supply do to the economy?  deflation - what is happening to home prices? what is happening to the stock market?  what about our dollar?  There is no end in sight to the credit problems in fact it is spreading viciously across debt markets. 

I do like your optimism but it seems to me that this can not be improved by June no matter what as their is no politically palletable resolution to the underlying problems.  I beleive we are very likely headed for depression level contraction, and the market is a symptom of that and not the other way around. 

[peternap]

Welcome to the forum Muldoon!

Actually, I agree completely with you. If you go back and look at some of my posts on the subject (careful, they tend to give headaches) you'll see that I fully expect a complete meltdown for many of the same reasons you stated.

What I was talking about today is what John calls "Muddle Through Economics".

I am expecting the market to be a painters house. By that I mean a rotted structure with a pretty paint job so someone buys it. I DON"T expect the economy to be healed, I just expect the market to  to do a longish dead cat bounce.

We have to get back to BASICS in order to fix our economy. Hard work, good products, no damn government interference and a lot less management. As far as I can see the only thing we manufacture is Upper Management. Too many Chiefs, etc.

We have a very real problem in this country, IMHO.

Until we come up with a solution whatever that may be.....I will continue playing the bumps and blips in the stock market. Our currency isn't much good...but for now it's all we have to buy things of real value.

Now the reason I think the market will bounce is because the fundamentals are no longer observed. While the hedgefunds aren't the only offenders, they are the worst. They can and will shuck and jive the market until it does what they want.....for a little while. The SEC has been talking about cracking down on naked shorts for years but the funds are still shorting stock that doesn't exist.

There are still some good buys in the market but IMHO only ones that have foreign interests and are completely divorced from our banking and lending system.

[ScottA]

I belive this economy is headed for a complete meltdown. It could get as bad as the great depression but I doubt it will go that far. Construction is steadily grinding to a halt just about everywhere because the banks have stopped loaning money. Credit is tighter on the consumer side as well. The prices of nessecities are climbing fast and wages have been stagnent for years already. All this adds up to very little cash being spent outside of food and fuel. Sure houses are cheaper but no ones buying regardless.

We keep a large portion of our funds in euros and canadian dollars so we got lucky these past few months. But with little work on the horizon it's shaping up to be a rough year ahead. I have not owned stock since I lost a bundle back in 2001 and got out of it. Most of our money is in real estate and foriegn currency.

[Willy]

Come on guys this is depresing reading about the declines. I have been seeing this happen every so many years and it is allways the stock market going down and oil going up. I have never invested in the stock market so it hasn't hit me in the pocket one way or the other. I am usaly broke around tax time and make it back during the summer. There isn't much I myself can do about socity blowing it big time so I just keep plugging along to get ahead. I am still going to start my cabin next week and finish it and go into fire season hoping for the best. This means for me to make money the fires must burn but they allways happen and someone needs to put them out! Might as well be me till I get to old and find another way to make a few bucks. I have seen construction go up and down for over 38 years since that is what I did for a living most of the time.
Notice where most of the forclosures are happening? There happening to the over priced homes in California and other places like that. They buy multi/million dollar houses and then wonder how to pay for them. The value drops before they can dump them on another sucker and boy do they scream! Zero princable payment loans with balloon payments hoping the value will go up so they can make a killing selling it again before the reaper wants paid. It all adds up to what the news people are talking about. Our econemy won't crash and if it does what can we do about it? One thing is you will be able to buy cheap land and homes again if you have some money tucked away. Like the Buy Gold thing in case the bottom falls out. Remember the story I will trade my kingdom for a horse. Same goes for gold you can't eat it but with bullets and guns can get your gold and food if you want it. Tools, food, guns and owning your own place with some land to live off of is your best bet. Having your own water well and living away from the city is a real good investment. A few years from now it will be a different thing the news is hyping about to get us all upset for ratings. This is how I deal with the future. Man I hope gas dosn't go up to much more cause I won't be able to drive to town once a week!! Mark

[Redoverfarm]

Willy what kind of a price are you paying for deisel fuel out that way? It is about $3.79 here.  That is another thing I can't completely understand.  Deisel used to be 30 cents cheaper that regular gasoline.  Now it is 30 + cents over regular. It does not take as much to refine it as it does gasoline.  I think the big oil companies saw it coming as more and more people making a switch to deisel that they figured " why not capitalize " on it too. Yeah they will probably tell you that it is the new "low sulphur" is more expensive to make. BC.  It went up way before the new low sulphur was ever put out.

Right about going to town once a week. I will have to send the 5 gallon gas cans with the wife to work to PU generator gas.

[Willy]

Willy what kind of a price are you paying for deisel fuel out that way? It is about $3.79 here.  That is another thing I can't completely understand.  Deisel used to be 30 cents cheaper that regular gasoline.  Now it is 30 + cents over regular. It does not take as much to refine it as it does gasoline.  I think the big oil companies saw it coming as more and more people making a switch to deisel that they figured " why not capitalize " on it too. Yeah they will probably tell you that it is the new "low sulphur" is more expensive to make. BC.  It went up way before the new low sulphur was ever put out.

Right about going to town once a week. I will have to send the 5 gallon gas cans with the wife to work to PU generator gas.

Same here got to make the trip to town count for than a gallon of milk. Not sure on diesel costs yet but soon I will be fililing my tender up with 100 gals. It is around $3.90+ a gal and will be over $4.00 this summer on the fires! I have to raise my daily rate up some to cover it. I have to add additives to burn the new stuff in my Cat 3406 435 HP engine so it is even more. $400.00 a fill up hurts and off road it is 5-9 MPG on the fires! A tank is good for a couple days. Mark

[Sassy]

More wonderful info on the economy...
http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd347.htm
AMERICANS VERY AFRAID OF FINANCIAL MELTDOWN UNDERWAY

By: Devvy
March 6, 2008

© 2008 - NewsWithViews.com

Tuesday's second "Super Tuesday" was another display of putrid politics. Allegedly Marxist Hillary Clinton took Texas. Why wouldn't she? We all recall her famous words a few months ago, "No woman is an illegal." Texas is infested with illegal aliens and we know they're voting. A few days before this horse and pony show, Obama and Clinton exchanged spit over NAFTA. Both of them tried to out do each other for the sake of big labor in Ohio, a job devastated state. Neither one of them pointed out this treaty is unconstitutional and why. As the Ohio primary loomed with oodles of delegates, Obama (Elmer Gantry clone), and Clinton (Top Ten Most Corrupt Politician), suddenly decided it was time to do something about NAFTA.

NAFTA was signed into law on December 8, 1993, by Bill Clinton, husband of Hillary. While NAFTA ravaged our industrial, agriculture and manufacturing jobs like another hurricane Katrina, Bill and Hill did nothing. As a result of a corrupt Congress getting NAFTA to Bill's desk, next came the Mexican Peso bail out and it WAS tied directly to NAFTA. The U.S. Constitution does NOT authorize Congress to bail out any foreign government; an impotent and corrupt Congress did nothing.

Hillary was unlawfully elected to the U.S. Senate in November, 2000. Obama was unlawfully elected to the U.S. Senate in 2004. Where has Clinton's concern for America's workers been for the eight years she's served unlawfully in the U.S. Senate? Where has Obama's concern for American workers been for the past four years while he's unlawfully served in the U.S. Senate? Why didn't this duo immediately support Rep. Virgil Goode's bill and sponsor one in the senate to get U.S. out of NAFTA? The why is simple: like all professional politicians, they will say anything to get votes. Both of them are preying on the desperate.

Americans are beginning to realize what countless economists and columnists have been warning about for years: financial devastation for millions is rolling across this country with the worst yet to come:

New recession worry: Bank failures - March 3, 2008 "Construction loan problems threaten spike in smaller bank failures and add to worry over credit crunch. As if the economy wasn't already fighting enough strong headwinds, the risk of capital shortfalls and outright failure of the nation's banks is rising."

con't at link above...

[Sassy]

This article sheds light on what is happening economically as part of the ultimate plan for globalization...
Discovering History - The Helsinki Final Act
   Reading the name,  Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), an American would immediately think - this organization has nothing to do with us, it's a European organization.  They would be wrong.  It has everything to do with us - and understanding how it relates to us - is the key to seeing through the smokescreen of how 'our' government is operating.    The  Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe is an  independent agency of the U.S. government that monitors "compliance with Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE commitments" and participates in the formulation of OSCE policy.   As a signatory of the Helsinki Final Act, the U.S. was and is bound by the provisions in the act as well. 

Helsinki Process

The Helsinki Final Act is - with the benefit of hindsight, one of the most important agreements the U.S. ever entered into in terms of how it affects U.S. domestic affairs.  The scope of it is breathtaking.  And when the lines are drawn from the conceptual areas of agreement to the legislation and actions of our government, it becomes clear that members of Congress - and in particular, the Senate are mere puppets who have in effect, been operating as agents of a foreign power - against the interests of the American people and our nation.   So how did that happen?

When Willy Brandt was elected in West Germany in 1969, the peaceful reunification of East and West Germany was a priority.   
On September 11, 2000, Charlene Barshevsky, Ambassador and U.S. Trade Representative gave a speech to the Inter-American Development Bank titled, "The Turning Point:  The Caribbean Basin Initiative and the Free Trade Area of the Americas in 2000" in which she said the following:

    "This is an especially appropriate time for us to meet. The months ahead will mark a turning point in the
    relationship between the United States and the Caribbean region. This is true in the most direct terms,
     as we implement a newly strengthened trade and investment relationship. And it is true in a larger
     sense, as we prepare for a fundamental change in the economic environment of the entire Western
     hemisphere - as, in accord with our mandate from the Summits of the Americas, we complete a first
     draft of the agreement creating the Free Trade Area of the Americas."

    The FTAA represents a dream two centuries old but never yet fulfilled - an integrated western
    hemisphere, united in democratic ideals and shared prosperity. This was the goal of the first Pan-
    American Congress held 170 years ago in Panama. And a renewed commitment to it - , drawing ideas
    from and building on the success of CBI together with NAFTA, Mercosur, CARICOM and the Central
    American Common Market - was President Clinton's central aim in convening the first Summit of the
    Americas in Miami six years ago.

On April 2, 2001, George W. Bush issued a proclamation declaring April 14 as Pan-American Day and April 8 through April 14 as Pan-American Week.  The following is an excerpt of that speech - note the near political gaff:

    In 1890, a Pan American conference established the International Union of American Republics. The Union eventually became the Organization of American States (OAS), which continues to faith-fully serve its member states. The OAS charter, in affirming the shared commitment, states that "the true significance of American solidarity and good neighborliness can only mean the consolida-tion . . . of a system of individual liberty and social justice based on respect for the essential rights of man."

On September 11, 2001,  Secretary of State Colin Powell was in Lima Peru to sign the Inter-American Democratic Charter.  Quite a series of coincidences - especially considering that in the aftermath of 9-11, our borders remained open, there was no criminal investigation, the 9-11 Commission produced a report of administrative changes for our government and the plan for the new Department of Homeland Security was prepared in the late 1990's propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding. 

In a speech in 2002, Ambassador Abelardo L. Valdez said the following in a speech titled, "The Free Trade Area of the Americas: Laying The Corner Stone for a Community of the Americas":
http://www.channelingreality.com/Helsinki/discovering_history_Helsinki_Final_Act.htm

[ScottA]

I've been seeing all this type of information for years and I get to wondering to what end? Is the idea to spread the truth in hopes that if enough people know it will magicly change things? Or is it a form of fishing where the hope is that the right person will hear the word and stand up and say no? Yes the system is corrupt it always has been and always will be. Mankind has dreamed of being free for a very long time. I guess what I'm getting at is why do we never see solutions presented instead of just complaints?

[Sassy]

You have a good point, Scott... but do you think the majority of people are very aware of what is actually happening with the gov't?  Most people I talk to don't have a clue.  Maybe most of the people on CP are more sophisticated & aware, but I'd rather put out info for people to read if they so choose - & hopefully to then speak out, write letters, faxes & make calls or be that person who will step out like Ron Paul... whether it does any good is anyone's guess, but if people don't know about it, they don't even have the opportunity to speak out.

A lot of people would rather not know about anything & go along their merry ways - maybe things will work out, maybe they won't... I used to be that way - now, I would rather share something that I've discovered - could be old hat to everyone else & I'm behind the times, but then again, may be something that just might get others to speak out.

As long as the "handlers" can keep the status quo & keep everyone too busy or entertained to care, they can continue to sell our country down the road...  but if enough people are aware, it's much more difficult for them to be deceived...  maybe we are too far gone, I hope not. 

I'm not complaining - I love this country - just putting out the info so that our country will continue to have some semblance of freedom...  that is my solution in my own small way... also belonging to different organizations - NRA, Prison Fellowship etc & helping to support them gives feet to those who are doing the work... 

[peternap]

..  that is my solution in my own small way... also belonging to different organizations - NRA, Prison Fellowship etc & helping to support them gives feet to those who are doing the work... 

Good for you Sassy!

[glenn kangiser]

I think I can safely say that the awareness that is building slowly now is responsible for Bush and Cheney not being able to Bomb Iran and cause hundreds to thousands more of our children to lose their lives for yet another illegal war for Israel and Oil.

As of last November, 68% oppose Iraq war- 70% oppose Iran strikes -- in 2003 was the last majority of support for the war at 54%.  That didn't happen by people keeping their mouths shut.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/08/war.poll/index.html

If it was not for people voicing their complaints and opposition, everyone would just sit and believe the criminals in control of the Government.  To hell with them, (please). 

[ScottA]

Sorry to complain about the complaining but I'm one of these action personalities that has a hard time watching and doing nothing about problems. I'm sure it's gotten me my share of troubles over the years. I don't have any answers but I'd sure like to hear some suggestions.

[glenn kangiser]

Not a problem, Scott.  The solution is total failure of the system one way or the other.  Revolution would be met with massive force by the criminals in control, but that is not too much of a problem -- it should self destruct one of these days.  Awareness is a good thing so you or people you care about will be better prepared to fend for yourselves without big brother...at least that's the way I see it.

Many people in the big cities will be totally lost.

[peternap]

I'm going to make some observations. I wouldn't think of being arrogant enough to think I could make a prediction. THIS IS A WEEK THAT WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORY!

Remember, last week when I started this thread, the stage was being set.

A lot of thing are coming together that could well form the perfect storm. They could also just blow by without much damage.

The market was unstable on Friday anyway. Over the weekend, the FED kept Bear, Stearns out of Bankruptcy long enough for JP Morgan to buy them out for $2.00 a share. This is a company that was selling for the mid one hundredish ....just months ago.
This move is killing off other smaller companies that were trying to issue new stock and brokering through BS.

The market is on fire today and may well burn down. As I watch right now, oil is at $110.60, DOW futures are down $178.00....S&P and NAS are down also.
The Dollar is down and the bloodletting is about to start.

In pre market I will get out of everything except the very long range investments and Muni's, make some popcorn and watch.

I fully expect this to be a very bad week and weaken the economy considerably.

This week also, we have the supreme court ruling on the 2end amendment for the first time in history. Depending on just how weak the economy is and how the Administration reacts to the weak economy and when the court decision comes out and what the court decision is.......could open the door to the bloodiest page in this country's history.

In the time it's taken me to type this, the DOW has dropped to 203.00 down.

Now what do these events have in common with each other?

1. The investment bank decision by the FED over the weekend, is historic. Never happened and is a desperation move. I expect more today as the market drops.

2.The Further fall of the market weakens the National and States economy. All States are trying to deal with shortfalls.

3. The Supreme court could well nullify ALL Federal Gun Control measures. Many of thise measures are just taxation shells. (For instance, serial numbers are taxed by the IRS, not the ATF)

4. Many states would try to close the gun gaps left by the decision by enacting their own laws. They will try to enforce it with police departments that are already stressed by budget shortfalls. (Many PD's are not patrolling because they do not have enough budgeted for gas)

5. The answer to all of this is to raise taxes...Federal, State, Local.

6. There is only so much blood in a taxpayer and there are a number of groups, both domestic and foreign, that have been waiting for extreme weakness, to just march in.

THERE ARE A LOT OF WHATIFS.......

Then again, the sun could shine and the birds sing and life may be good .....POPCORN TIME1

[ScottA]

Consolidation of wealth in progress as per the plan.

[glenn kangiser]

Quote from Russian web site.

Tent cities in California
By: gazza on: 17.03.2008 [15:24 ]
Tent cities in California


The US is on the ropes . This is the result of government policies totally wrong for a long time .
Government by the rich for the rich . Constant wars to expand the Empire . Printing money like crazy . Globalizations policies and export of middle class jobs to developing countries . The Level Playing Field
has caught up with the US . A bowl of rice is the just pay for the gullible Amerikan population .
Sad , but it had to end like this ...

From http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/159439

BBC news video (Britian)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnOOo6tRs8&eurl=http://www.blacklistednews.com/view.asp?ID=5900

[Sassy]

Consolidation of wealth in progress as per the plan.

A friend sent me this...  truth???   
SPECIAL "CLOSED SESSION" OF U.S. HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES DISCUSSED A LOT MORE THAN
THE PENDING SECURITY SURVEILLANCE PROVISIONS!

Closed Door Session of Congress – Saturday March 15th, 2008
This was only the fourth time in 176 years that Congress has closed its doors to the public. What was it that they
were discussing that they do NOT want us to know about?  Word has begun leaking from last nights special, closed-door session of the United States House of Representatives.  Not only did members discuss new surveillance provisions as was the publicly stated reason for the closed door session, they also discussed:

1. The imminent collapse of the U.S. economy to occur by September 2008,

2. The imminent collapse of US federal government finances by February 2009,

3. The possibility of Civil War inside the USA as a result of the collapse,

4. Advance round-ups of "insurgent U.S. citizens" likely to move against the government,

5. The detention of those rounded-up at "REX 84" camps constructed throughout the USA,

6. The possibility of retaliation against members of Congress for the collapses,

7. The location of "safe facilities" for members of Congress and their families to reside during expected massive civil unrest.

8. The necessary and unavoidable merger of the United States with Canada (for its natural resources) and with Mexico (for its cheap labor pool),

9. The issuance of a new currency - THE AMERO - for all three nations as the proposed solution in the coming economic Armageddon.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message520602/pg1

The Amero Coin – Our new currency:

Video: 10 seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFUo92FVCG8

here's another link that goes right along with Peter's predictions...  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/wall-street-fears-for-next-great-depression-796428.html

[muldoon]

Thats alot to talk about in a single 1 hour session for congress.  I mean no disrespect here, but Hal Turner and godlikeproductions are not credible sources in any way.  I am very concerned about the economy, and am directly impacted by the recent events.  I see huge disruptions and problems ahead but to post this as news does nothing but discredit the valid data that we have.   I dont see the need or value of damaging the credibility by adding tinfoil to a bad situation, in fact I think it to be rather dangerous because it makes it easy to shrug the entire bit off as non-valid. 

Aside from that little comment, I agree that things dont look good right now at all. 

[MountainDon]

A friend sent me this...  truth???   

Probably not in it's entirety.

As muldoon said, all that in an hour?    

[Willy]

A friend sent me this...  truth???   

Probably not in it's entirety.

As muldoon said, all that in an hour?    

I even went to the site and looked? I also looked at the stock market and it had a big dip today. Glad I did not have all my money in the Bear Sterns Business! Wonder what will happen tomorrow?? I do remember when stocks were at 9000 and they thought that was great and had bets that it might hit 10,000 and look at it now! Mark

[peternap]

If you notice on that site, the BS flag went up.
Every rumor like that starts with a little fact and gets enhanced every time it's told.

The market today frightened me. I did get out of the quick stocks today and was glad. They all went down between 2 an 10 dollars. I'll buy back in when I think I can see a bottom.

The marked was being played by the hedgefuunds more today than I've ever seen. There was no pattern or reason to it.

I can't even guess what will happen tomorrow until I see what the overseas markets do tonight. My guess is down in most sectors although the exchanges may show some minor recovery or be flat. What the FED does will have some effect although they have already been priced in.

It's going to dance like drunken sisters the rest of the week.

[Sassy]

Muldoon wrote "Thats alot to talk about in a single 1 hour session for congress.  I mean no disrespect here, but Hal Turner and godlikeproductions are not credible sources in any way."
Hal Turner might not be credible but the issues are...  & I didn't see where congress only met for a 1 hr session...
  Whether they discussed all that is debatable, but Halliburton/KBR was given a few hundred million $$$ to renovate a lot of old internment camps "just in case we had problems with a lot of illegal aliens or had to quarantine a lot of avian flu people...
http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=eed74d9d44c30493706fe03f4c9b3a77
Homeland Security Contracts for Vast New Detention Camps

BERKELEY, Calif.--A Halliburton subsidiary has just received a $385 million contract from the Department of Homeland Security to provide "temporary detention and processing capabilities."

kbrThe contract -- announced Jan. 24 by the engineering and construction firm KBR -- calls for preparing for "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs" in the event of other emergencies, such as "a natural disaster." The release offered no details about where Halliburton was to build these facilities, or when.

To date, some newspapers have worried that open-ended provisions in the contract could lead to cost overruns, such as have occurred with KBR in Iraq. A Homeland Security spokesperson has responded that this is a "contingency contract" and that conceivably no centers might be built. But almost no paper so far has discussed the possibility that detention centers could be used to detain American citizens if the Bush administration were to declare martial law.

For those who follow covert government operations abroad and at home, the contract evoked ominous memories of Oliver North's controversial Rex-84 "readiness exercise" in 1984. This called for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to round up and detain 400,000 imaginary "refugees," in the context of "uncontrolled population movements" over the Mexican border into the United States. North's activities raised civil liberties concerns in both Congress and the Justice Department. The concerns persist.
read also http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198456,00.html
Why Is Halliburton Building Internment Camps?
By Sheila Musaji
02/26/05 "ICH" -- -- On January 24th it was announced [1] that a subsidiary of Halliburton KBR was awarded a $385 million contract by the Department of Homeland Security to build detention centers in the U.S.  These centers might be used for immigration, or for disaster relief, or vaguely "... to support the rapid development of new programs."

As early as September of 2002, John Ashcroft discussed internment of even American citizens who were deemed "enemy combatants" [2a] and Peter Kirsanow of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission said that he "could foresee a scenario in which the public would demand internment camps for Arab Americans if Arab terrorists strike again in this country." If there's a future terrorist attack in America ''and they come from the same ethnic group that attacked the World Trade Center, you can forget about civil rights." [2 b]

"Almost certainly this is preparation for a roundup after the next 9/11 for Mid-Easterners, Muslims and possibly dissenters," says Daniel Ellsberg, a former military analyst who in 1971 released the Pentagon Papers, the U.S. military's account of its activities in Vietnam. "They've already done this on a smaller scale, with the 'special registration' detentions of immigrant men from Muslim countries, and with Guantanamo." [3]

Now we are beginning to see this mentioned by a number of sources [4] to [10] but it is still not front page news, although it is not only Muslims and Arabs who are concerned about what sort of emergency might require detention centers, [11] and what are these mysterious "new programs"? [12] and [13].

I believe that all Americans should be very concerned.  It might be "someone else" they come for first, but if this is the direction our nation is going, who knows where it will end.

lots of links at the end of above article