20x36 and garage in North Central MN

[northwoodsrider]

Hello, I have been a long time lurker, and member under a different name at CountryPlans back in 2007. Since then I have built a rustic cabin, a tiny house, and a tiny house style garage/shop. Now I'm getting ready to step it up to a full out house as I'm getting married in two weeks and plan on having children within the next couple years.

I have a piece of land that has been in the family for many years, and my grandfather put it into a living trust for me and my brother many years ago, with the original intention of it being a long term investment. The future wife and I love the land and have decided to build our first house out there, debt free.

We both have modest jobs, her being an elementary school teacher and myself being the head of maintenance at an apartment complex. Neither of us make tons of money, but have jobs we both enjoy and that allows us to have weekends off, and myself the ability to make my own schedule adding some flexibility for building a house. I am 27, and the future wife is 24.

At the beginning of last year I bought an old junker camper for $500 with the intention of remodeling it and using it as a "house" while building our new home. Well that turned out to be the beginning of an adventure, since the camper was much more rotten than I initially thought, the fiance and I decided to build a new camper, and then it evolved into deciding to build a tiny house.

Excuse the messy yard. We ended up moving out of the house we were renting and into the tiny house last October to save money on rent. It wasn't quite complete, but we didn't want to be tied into a lease anywhere and had acquired to many critters to rent anywhere. It is still at about 95% completion, but it's WAY to hard to work on a tiny house that is being lived in.


Well after moving into a tiny house, we were saving quite a bit on rent since we were able to move into the fiance's parent's yard. They had an old septic system we hooked up to and we put in a sand point well. The only struggle was keeping everything from freezing last winter with many days colder than -20F. Then I decided I needed a shed to store all my tools and guy stuff, so I had to build another portable shed.



OK now onto the future building.

The 80 acres is located about 7 miles out of the nearest small town of 600. Very few neighbors and no one who lives full time on the same minimum maintenance road.

Future house site on top of a ridge, overlooking a swampy pond.


Site towards road


Driveway from site to garage.

[northwoodsrider]

This is the pond/swamp the house will overlook. Looking at the first picture, the house would be up the ridge you can't see toward the left of the picture behind the trees.


Same pond from different angle.


Creek that starts and goes across the land from the swamp.


Hill right up to the driveway entrance. The guy down the road has been bringing in loads of tailings to improve the road. Everything out in this area is all clay... about 4 feet of it.


Driveway entrance off of the road.


Pile of wood and the beginning of the road to future house/garage.


Future garage site.


Cool spot I found while riding around in the woods. Across the swamp from build site.

[northwoodsrider]

I bought the plans for the 20x30 and have modified them to a 20x36. I have come up with a rough idea of what we are trying to build.

Floor plan








These were made with Chief architect I used at school. Same as 3DHome Architect. Just a little more powerful.

The garage will be completed first, and will be 24x40. I haven't decided whether or not I want to hand frame the roof or use attic trusses for storage for this. Would like at least 9' ceiling, but 10' would be better. I plan on doing as much of the work as possible. So.... My first question of many...

What is the most economical way to build a garage foundation in clay? How much needs to be excavated and filled? I'm having a hard time finding info about building in clay with a 48" frost line.

I don't have access to much heavy equipment, only a skid steer which isn't great for any amount of excavation especially in this slick clay.

Thanks, any questions feel free to ask! I have lots of info on tiny houses too if anyone is interested.

Mark

[DutchMo]

Welcome, Mark!  Very nice plans.  Kudos to you for thinking things through and having a good plan in place.

Regarding your garage foundation, I think it sounds like a perfect opportunity to use pole barn construction.  You can Google it, but the basics are that the perimeter is composed of large "poles" (usually 6x6 or larger) set every 8 feet or so apart.  Each pole is dug below frost depth and rests on an adequate footer (concrete).  The poles are connected at the top by a beam on which to rest the roof, and the horizontal dimensional lumber is attached between the poles.  Wall cladding is then attached to the girts.  A truss roof is probably the easiest and fastest way to keep the weather out.  Unlike traditional construction, you can go farther between trusses, though, and then use purlins across the trusses for attaching your roofing material.

The beauty of this type of structure is that the poles bear the entire weight of the structure, and the truss roof keeps things nice and open inside.  You can leave the floor as dirt if you want, or put down a concrete slab if needed.  Since the concrete slab isn't structural, it shouldn't need to go to frost depth.

Do keep in mind that this type of structure isn't designed for habitation, but it should do perfect for a garage.

[northwoodsrider]

I really like the ease of construction of pole barn construction and also the cost and "delayed" payment of the concrete cost by starting with a dirt floor. I forgot to include that I will use this garage for various projects in the winter and will be heading out with an indoor wood stove with a blower. (Yet to be found and purchased).

From everything I have read and seen, there appears to be no cost effective and efficient way to insulate and seal up a pole barn. I would live to hear other people's opinions on this. I will be doing a majority of the work myself, and I don't mind of the insulating is a bit more time consuming or difficult. Winters get really cold and long here... Sometimes weeks or more of below 0.

What's everyone's experience with insulating and sheathing the interior of a pole barn?

[Bob S.]

Did you build your tiny house on the frame from the junk RV?

[northwoodsrider]

Did you build your tiny house on the frame from the junk RV?

I sure did. Bought a camper that was 8 x 16 and built it on that. Used all 2 x 4's and fiberglass insulation for everything but the floor. Been working great for us to live in inexpensively. Used an electric space heater all winter for the time we were here, and propane 18,000 btu rv furnace when we were gone and to warm it up quick. Been using a window ac to keep it cool this summer. Our electric bill was $221 at its highest in February running one space heater full time in well enclosure and most of the inside heat coming from electric.

Been very happy with eccotemp on demand propane water heater as well. I would recommend it to anyone with a small cabin or tiny house.

[Don_P]

For post frame building this is a basic intro;
http://www.awc.org/publications/dca/dca5/dca5.pdf

National Frame Builders Association is at nfba.org there is a fair amount of info on their site, it does take some poking around. They also have an expensive new design guide out, if you want it around while you design I'd be happy to talk about buying it for say $20 off when you're done.

[DutchMo]

From everything I have read and seen, there appears to be no cost effective and efficient way to insulate and seal up a pole barn. I would live to hear other people's opinions on this. I will be doing a majority of the work myself, and I don't mind of the insulating is a bit more time consuming or difficult. Winters get really cold and long here... Sometimes weeks or more of below 0.

Not sure how efficient it is, but my father in law built a 3 car pole barn/machine shed and put up insulated panel walls.  That and an insulated roof keep things pretty toasty during the winter.  He's got a concrete floor on his.  Our winters are mostly in the 20s and 30s.  Not sure how it would fare below 0 for extended periods.

[northwoodsrider]

I have read lots of opinions  about how to insulate and vent but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on what's best for cold situations.  I don't think spray foaming is going to be in the budget,  but it seems the most economical way to insulate would be use rigid foam between the horizontal purlins  (girts) and then frame  out the wall flush with the posts and use batts of fiberglass.  But would I want house wrap under the metal siding  and also poly on the inside of the insulation? Would this not breathe enough?  I'm trying to avoid the dreaded  moisture build up and dropping that can happen with pole building. 

I keep going back and forth of whether a pole building will be less cost than a stick built garage. ..

I do like being able to do the pole building in steps whereas the traditional stick built takes an enormous up front cost with site work and concrete. ..

Thanks for helping with all the brainstorming. .

[northwoodsrider]

Here are a few more tiny house pics for anyone interested. Fiancé  did a pretty good job documenting all the steps.

[northwoodsrider]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196027


I think I have found my solution to having a garage built with ties below the frost  line and be stick built! Does anyone have experience with a building like this?  How would a slab hold up floating in a structure such as this?  I really appreciate any comments  or criticism!

[northwoodsrider]

Can anyone tell me what the kind of construction in the link is called?

The county I'm in has told me that they have not adopted residential building code. .. does this mean I can basically buy a permit for the size building I want and build it however I want?

[Don_P]

Can anyone tell me what the kind of construction in the link is called?

Unbraced, a soft story, a few others come to mind. If the posts run up through the walls the wall sheathing... a braced wall, also braces the posts. As built the soil and the bolts/nails from the skirts to the posts is trying to keep the posts from rotating. It's not hard to do it right.

[northwoodsrider]

 Thanks Don P

So what's your opinion of "doing it right" for a garage in clay soil ? I thought this seemed like an easy way to build in stages  but  have a building with a roof quickly.  If I do footings  it will cost a small fortune to go down to 4th frost depth.

What makes post and pier for a small house better than this method?

[Don_P]

Post and pier is exactly the same as this, an unbraced, weak, non code (and for good reason)...a mess.

"If the posts run up through the walls, the wall sheathing... a braced wall, also braces the posts." Build it post frame style. What that guy did is not a hybrid pole barn, it is simply ignorant, use it as a learning/ thinking tool just like the pier and beam foundations.

You do need to do footings below frost depth... you chose the spot and all that comes with it, that doesn't suspend the laws of physics. Post frame is at least on spot footings rather than a continuous footing. I generally pick up the phone and meet the excavator at the site and dig for a continuous spread footing.